The new Yu-Gi-Oh! Forbidden List for 09/09 should be released today. Before discussing the specific list, I am making two design posts. This first post discusses a few now-abandoned design guidelines Konami had consistently used throughout Yu-Gi-Oh!
A second post will talk about what Konami now wants. I want to analyze Konami’s actions in the context of its own design from years ago, then discuss whether the approach is a good or bad idea.
Pointing out Konami Design Metrics
As a long-time player, I have taken note of many historical aspects of Yu-Gi-Oh! and believe that certain sensible design restrictions were abandoned. The early designers of Yu-Gi-Oh! didn’t really know what they were doing, so the actual patterns may not have super deep meanings. It seems many of the following metrics were accidental and/or random in nature.
Yu-Gi-Oh! Metric 1- The “Strong” normal summon benchmark is 2000 ATK
As many players know, the baseline attack score for the “best in class beater” was always 1800 ATK. The early game was dominated by La Jinn’s and 7 Colored Fishies floating around. Mechanicalchaser briefly set the mark at 1850 until 1900 ATK monsters came around. Design-wise, Konami refused to print a monster higher than 1900 attack without drawbacks (look at Zombyra the Dark, Flash Assailant, Dark Elf, and others).
The first 2000 attack monster without a self-crippling drawback was Berserk Gorilla (in IOC). This means nearly twenty sets (rough estimate) had passed in Yu-Gi-Oh! without a single push past the 1900 ATK metric.
The existence of the 1900 attack metric suggests Konami intended for duels to finish in 5 direct attacks by the opponent’s strongest monsters. The games in the environment today that end in one turn are a perversion of this idea.
What Went Wrong with Yu-Gi-Oh! Metric 1- The first few threats to the best in class beater were swiftly handled. BLS and Chaos Sorcerer were both limited then banned. Breaker the Magical Warrior (exactly at 1900 with a positive effect) was limited and then banned.
Somewhere in the process of hyping a new show, Konami abandoned this reasonable approach and printed Cyber Dragon. According to Kevin Tewart’s (high ranking Konami official) words, Cyber Dragon made a healthy sum of money for Konami due to the show tie-in and the card’s appeal. Since 2+2= 4, it would seem that somewhere along this time Konami changed its design ideals in favor of more profitability. And profitability, based on set sales, revolved around explosiveness.
This put into motion the Dark remix set of Phantom Darkness and the game was changed forever. From that point onward, new cards have been printed at a breakneck, inflated pace to try to match Dark Armed Dragon’s power level. If the pace continues, this cannot end well.
Yu-Gi-Oh! Metric 2- Floaters were never intended to have large ATK and DEF scores.
At the dawn of the game, the flip effect was the classic floater. The classic Man Eater Bug into Summoned Skull play was frequent. And the list of amazing flip effect monsters, from Magician of Faith to Mask of Darkness, all topped out at less than 1000 ATK/DEF.
The other two true floaters (Witch and Sangan) came out at low ATK scores as well. Witch’s ATK score of 1100 was deemed too high for such a powerful effect, and it was then banned. Konami managed its floater ATK scores very carefully (even if by accident).
What Went Wrong with Yu-Gi-Oh! Metric 2- This changed with Gravekeeper’s Spy and Dekoichi the Battlechanted Locomotive. These two were the first flip effects with strong ATK/DEF bodies, often leading to instant floats regardless of the opponent’s monster. Based on Spy and Deko being theme support combined with Konami’s long history of oopsies, it would appear that Konami never intended for Spy and Deko to be splashed into normal decks.
Since Japanese players weren’t using the cards the way the TCG eventually did, the “flipped floater with a body” threat never became apparent until much later. Note: To give you an idea how far Max Suffridge was ahead of his time, he was main-decking Deko, Spy, and Tsukuyomi in 3 Scapegoat format. Note 2: He was also using the abysmal Abyss Soldier, so alas his genius only stretched so far.
Konami does not understand or respect the floater mechanic despite ample evidence. Gadgets seem to have been a “floater” experiment that floated to the top tier instantly. Gladiator Beasts, as well, are an experiment in floating that have consistently performed well in every format, broken or not.
Since the players didn’t even understand it back then, it’s difficult to blame design at that time for printing cards like Spy and Dekoichi. The lack of understanding today, however, is a more troubling concern. It is unclear if design understands how powerful cards like Equeste, Black Whirlwind, and Mezuki are from a card advantage perspective. Every single floater Konami has printed, from Card Trooper to Stratos to Volcanic Rocket, has anchored some form of top tier deck that normal decks simply cannot compete against. The big ones such as DaD and Judgment Dragon border on ridiculous.
Yu-Gi-Oh Metric 3- Effects were never allowed to target either a monster or a spell/trap. Effects that received this type of versatility, such as Raigeki Break and Phoenix Wing Wind Blast, were tied to significant costs
While monsters such as Celestia, DaD, Judgment Dragon, and Gyzarus are now common place, they actually represent a new breed of cards that were never before seen in Yu-Gi-Oh!
In the past, monster and s/t effects were never allowed to roam freely between the two realms. Cards were specialized to the point where Fissure and Nobleman of Crossout were devoted to different states of monster summons. Spells and traps would either target other spells and traps or target monsters. Merging the two for increased versatility was dangerous.
One need only look at the progression of Monarchs to see Konami’s hesitation. Zaborg destroyed 1 monster. Then Mobius destroyed up to 2 s/ts. Granmarg, the first “versatile” one was given a drawback so severe that to this day it is the least played Monarch. It wasn’t until literally a year later that a Monarch (Caius) was released with the ability to destroy one card freely.
What Went Wrong with Yu-Gi-Oh! Metric 3- It’s difficult to tell if Dark Armed Dragon’s design was accidental or intentional. It would appear Konami believed three Darks in the graveyard was a condition stringent enough to prevent large amounts of Dark Armed Dragon’s from seeing play. This is not their first miscalculation (Yata being made a spirit comes to mind) but it may be their worst.
It seems the design team of PTDN (and the loony buffoon who designed Grepher and Allure for the TCG) threw caution to the wind and set out to create the most explosive, best-selling set possible (at the cost of the “classic” Yu-Gi-Oh! game).
Every set after PTDN has struggled to match its sales and power. Gladiator Beasts were given the monster and s/t targeting Gyzarus to break DaD’s dominance. Lightsworn were created. X-Saber Airbellum and Summoner Monk were released, giving rise to yet another versatile multi-targeter (Arcanite Magician).
Yu-Gi-Oh Metric 4- One Turn Knockouts (OTK) were swiftly dealt with
Since players had the right to last five direct attacks under the Konami rules, the company swiftly dealt with OTK decks. Empty Jar, Scientist-Catapult OTK’s, and even Stein-OTK were managed quite carefully. This trend has not really been broken. Konami has done a consistently solid job of preventing players from losing in a single turn.
However, errors have still been made and we must watch carefully. It would appear X-Saber builds in the new format have the chance of reducing opponent’s hands to zero on turn 1, effectively ending the game with certain hand combinations before the game even starts. Other decks such as Blackwings can also end the game in one big turn.
Closing Thoughts
What’s most interesting about Yu-Gi-Oh! is pondering what would have happened if Konami had learned from its well designed cards. We can see with pre-PTDN design that the team created quite a few gems. The subtypes (Warrior, Spellcaster, etc) and attributes (FIRE, WATER, etc) could have been fleshed out far better into something appealing.
We can see glimmers in half-hearted attempts such as Attribute-recruiters (Mystic Tomato, Shining Angel) from MRL and Attribute-specials (Gigantes, Inferno) in IOC that an incredibly diverse subtype/attribute-centric game could have been created. Duels could have become tactical affairs where different synergies met others.
Design could have created numerous cards balanced cards similar to Legendary Jujitsu Master, D.D Warrior Lady, Royal Firestorm Guards, and such. Since the next article will get into Konami’s current design philosophy, I’ll leave you with this question:
What if the game still revolved around Normal and Flip summons, with strategies being linked to Subtypes/Attributes such as FIRE being burn, Beasts doing trample, Spellcasters manipulating spells and counters, Zombies coming back from life and other such ideas better fleshed out with sharper card design. Would it be more enjoyable or less?
Related posts:
i remember when the game had so much more to do with card advantage,with the next format i beleive it is going to start to go back down this parth hopfuly,a game of stratagy and planing,instead of simply otks and such
I agree with much of what is posted here. Post PTDN especially, the game has been subjected to a massive curve of newer cards surpassing older ones (I believe the term for this is power creep). They have essentially thrown balance out of the window for profit- the printing and then non-limitation or ban on Judgement Dragon is proof enough of this. It’s gotten so bad that cards like Chaos Sorcerer and Breaker can come to 2 or 3 and have almost no impact in the face of Gyzarus, DAD, and Judgement Dragon. That seems problematic to me.
The idea of floaters having good stats is also a bad one, because it removes the whole choice between ATK power and useful effects. Cards that have both are invariably going to see play over all but the best of one or the other. I believe you are spot on with the Monarch comparison in this regard- Raiza and Caius are far superior to any Monarch that went before, in line with Konami throwing caution to the wind. The creation of JD and DAD are abominations of card design that never should have existed. I agree that PTDN was the turning point, for the worse, of this game.
I agree entirely with your closing thoughts. The game as it is has become unbelievably fast, designed on getting to your power cards before the opponent and proceeding to beat his or her face in with them. I would much rather see a game and a card design team that supported the roots of the game- Attibutes, Types, etc, rather then build a new theme every set, half-ass the support for it (or make it obscene like LS), then move onto the next one. Because the game’s not about the game anymore for Konami. It’s about the money, seemingly, and that’s why they’d let the list and card design go to hell as long as it keeps the busted cards selling. *sigh*
This article made me nostalgic xD
Really amazing read. Everything is so true. If you were the one designing cards Yugioh would have been so much better
Great call back Jae. Though there are some minor details that you missed it your topic and its points are still very much on point.
The game of Yugioh is a very interesting one mixing in many of the strengths found in earlier TCGs to create a very unique game. The designers of this game…frankly they have know real idea of where they want to take this game, unfortunately. Hopefully they will realize the larger player base and take advantage of that in a more positive way.
Great article Jae!!! Also to answer your question the game would have been far more enjoyable if card design was built with specific goals based on Types and Attributes. I create cards myself on various Create-A-Card Forums and I always felt that every Attribute and Type should have something unique to its card design. For example I remade the broken Cyber Dragon in to a much more balanced card I call Fiber Dragon.
Fiber Dragon
Earth/Plant/Effect/5/2100/1600
If your opponent controls a monster and you control no monsters, you can Special Summon this card from your hand by returning 1 EARTH Monster from your hand to your Deck, then draw 1 card. This card cannot be used for a Synchro Summon of a Synchro Monster.
I got the Image from Deviantart.com.
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6369/213069d.jpg
Not only does this balance the card out by making it Attribute Specific. It also retains the original power of Cyber Dragon. This is the direction I believe Konami should have moved in or should start moving in before the game loses out on what made it great in the first place.
this was an awesome article. probably the best i’ve ever read on yugioh. unfortunately, we can never go back to “the way it used to be”. konami will continue to print ridiculous special summon-based cards that move the game further and further away from the card design ideals of 2002-2005. sooner or later, players will have to get over it, and learn to accept the new way of yugioh.
I will say this, though: I don’t believe having the special-summon based gameplay is per se a “bad” thing (which is presumably what you’ll be addressing to some extent in your next article).
It’s just something new. I feel if done the right way, it can be done well. People are always scared and critical of new stuff, which is fair.
I just want more prized based tournaments like SJCs or even something along the lines of Magic, hell even pokemon has a better system of tournaments than us, wtf!
tmadness thats completely irrelevant rofl
As always, very good read, Jae.
The first thing I wanted to point out, though, was something regarding the breakdown of metric #1. The printing of monsters that established a new baseline attack power(affectionately dubbed “power creep” by many on DGz)started at TP1 with the release of Mechanicalchaser. 1850 with no drawback forced the opponent to either summon his own 1850(they were quite expensive at this time, so this was difficult for the average player to do), play sub optimal cards that make his smaller monster larger, deal with monster through common removal(the most effective option), or just roll over and die. Things soon escalated with the release of Gemini Elf, the game’s first 1900 attacker with no drawback. Shortly after this is where Cyber Dragon would come in and, as you noted, change the game forever…
Often times I do wonder why Konami does the things they do to the game. With 6 attribtes and 18(?) types, you think they would spread around power more evenly. DARK was ALREADY the most powerful attribute BEFORE they got a set’s worth of support from the most powerful offering in the small-set era(and coincidentally, the game). They could have ust as easily made:
Super Bad Ass Fire Guy
*******
“This card can only be Special Summoned when you have exactly 3 FIRE monsters int the ‘yard. Remove 1 FIRE from the ‘yard to nuke one card on the field.” 2800/1000 Fire/Pyro
Between this type of faulty card design, the rise of the special summon, the disproportion of ATK strengths to LP totals, and a couple other bad choices, this really has turned into a game different than what I remember playing in the early years of my “career”.
And to answer your question…
I would love to have played that game. THAT’S what the game was supposed to be.
Now THIS IS THE FOLLOWUP I WANTED.
The discussion then becomes about one thing and one thing only – which metrics being broken are tolerable, and which aren’t?
Discussions about Spy and Deko are going to be especially fruitful.
There’s one problem, though – we have forgotten to tie together how ATK values themselves make all monsters into sorts of floaters, BY killing things in battle. The original floater was not Man-Eater Bug; it was the original floater-by-effect. The original boss floater – the first card to take the title of highest ATK – was Dark Magician, released in March 1999, in the OCG’s Volume 1. Blue-Eyes didn’t come until later that month, and it was the second king.
The creation of Man-Eater Bug itself as the first effect floater was itself a metric being broken – and rest assured that that metric being broken WAS for the best.
So let’s talk metrics and cards. Spy broke a metric. Would we say that it was wrong to do so?
Card advantage is always a good thing to keep in mind. Unfortuantely X-Sabers are going to be able to empty your hand in a single turn, making card advantage a huge weapon for X-Sabers. If you are staring down a field of X-Sabers that have emptied your hand before they’ve attacked even once it’s going to be pretty difficult to mount a come back. Gorz is pretty much useless against this kind of a threat and only a terrible player would start picking off cards in your hand before clearing your back row. As with most other decks these days this trick can be pulled off because the deck can Special Summon a rediculous amount of monsters relatively quickly.
Which brings us back to what Jae’s post was talking about. The designers of this game have shifted away from cards that have a cost reward you for investing in them, like Zaborg and Chaos Sorcerer, to cards that are relatively free and still reward you for playing them. This speeds the game up immensly but also removes some of the skill from the game. Now people that plan out their moves and invest into their field can easily be stomped by a single card. Playing conservative can help mitigate this risk, but when things like X-Sabers start punishing conservative players we’ve lost one of the only advantages that skilled players have in the game.
#
Living Legend
August 20th, 2009 at 10:00 AM
… sooner or later, players will have to get over it, and learn to accept the new way of yugioh.
No. We can very well continue to say “X was better”, as that’s just our telling the truth.
We don’t need Konami’s following that truth as a reason to tell the truth; likewise, their ignoring it is no reason to stop.
What we can do is simply buy less and play through costless resources more often – essentially, we can play the game through the various free apps, and keep enjoying the enjoyable parts, while also not bothering to pay Konami because of its errors.
The original article mentioned Mechanicalchaser briefly setting the 1850 benchmark and other details. I omitted a lot of it in the interest of space, but yes that paragraph seemed to imply it went straight from 1800 to 1900 (and also implied Kycoo came out before Gemini).
Very interesting read. IMO, the game would have become less enjoyable if they sticked too the same “battle” format up to now. There are only so many combinations you can do that are based on Attribute/Type and Normal/Flip summoning. Eventually it will just get boring.
Yugioh seems to have evolved into a a very speedy game now. There are virtually countless strategies to abuse and counter. This is a vague description but…first, there was basic attack and defend maneuvers; then clearing the field to attack; followed by burning effects with stalling strategies; more themes come out allowing for more versatile comboing; further graveyard support; powerhouse summoning (age of Synchros). As I see it, Konami seems to be trying to once again “counter” the dominant “battle style” in the Metagame. This is what I think when they released Gorz, followed much later by Tragoedia (opponent can survive a full on assault; he/she is not completely helpless). It becomes harder to win. This would seem to make the duels longer though. It sort of balances out.
There is so much to look out for. But this keeps the game alive. Overall, the game is forcing the duelist to enlarge their thinking and processing capabilities, making them brace themselves for any card combo that can be played upon them. It is quite thrilling to be on the alert of what can possibly happen, and figuring out how to best prepare yourself for a possible lethal strike. I think I’ve rambled on enough..
I enjoyed this article as much as everyone else, but the new face of Yu-Gi-Oh, as it is now, reminds me of institutions like Wall Street. Even now in the wake of crisis after crisis, despite the reality its controlling bodies don’t actually know what they’re doing and the present day’s knowledge of the consequences of their unsustainable business models, you can’t really go back without destroying the world they have been building for themselves, which would be catastrophic. Landed ideologies and design philosphies, especially primitive ones basically forged to turn a timely profit at a cost people won’t recognize until much later, are incredibly difficult to reverse.
Remember the roots of this game, all the way back to the manga. Kazuki Takahashi didn’t intend for Duel Monsters to be the star of his serial. It became the primary focus of the comic because readers chimed in and his publishers most assuredly encouraged the emphasis in light of the burgeoning interest. So yes, emphatically yes, the game’s card designers, to a palpable extent, do not know what they are doing. Every set has an embarassingly disproportionate number of half-baked to downright incompetent cards. Konami’s product was largely riffing off the popularity of the manga and the anime series.
We’re at a frightening point where even Breaker can be Unlimited again. Just a year and a half ago it was commonplace to hear the players heatedly debating its power in the forums, arguing its potential to destroy two cards by itself. Now it’s cast aside as “not that great anymore.” What a turnaround! Expecting KDE to go back to square one with the game is unrealistic, a pipe dream. The best they can do is put a lid on a few of the more obnoxious powerhouses in due time and keep raising the abandoned Attributes and Types from the dead. To their credit, they’ve done handsome jobs with a few already. We have gone from Darkworld Thorns to Lonefire Blossom, Dark Magician Girl to Tempest Magician. The initial description of Absolute Powerforce, if it is genuine, promises even more new breath for dying decks.
I still enjoy Yu-Gi-Oh, warts and all. I have no delusions of living to see Konami adopt a more sensible design philosphy anytime soon, which would require grass-roots changes in every other branch of the Yu-Gi-Oh franchise including the television series. Children do comprise enough of KDE’s overall money pie to limit our jurisdiction over the directions the series takes, which partially dictates the evolution of the game. As enough of you have noticed, marketing is a supreme force here. My dearest wish for future sets is a lot of make-up smex between Konami and the scorned Archtypes, Types, and Attributes. That will open up a lot of closed doors in this game and lend it a richness many Yu-Gi-Oh players have been deprived of.
Atem
…Um I think you meant to Say Summoned Skull was the Original beater not Dark Magician. But Point well made! I agree with you other than DM and SS
I think Marcus hit it on the ehad though this new set mixed with this ban makes the game much more balanced. I just cant wait to see the TCGs official ban, is it really gonna be posted today?! Don’t tease me Jae!
I actually like the way this game goes to.
yea, OTK are evil and stupidly easy to commit, but that’s due to few uncounterable cards, like DSF, heavy storm and etc. the power creep didn’t just “erupt” out of nowhere, it was there all alone. the best cards in the game were created in the first few sets and banned for a good reason. monster reborn, pot of greed, graceful charity-you rarely compare these to “allure of darkness”, “destiny draw” or “limit reverse”.
Most of the power was banned, but not all of it. Some cards are just too easy to use, and I find Heavy Storm one of them. It’s way too easy to delete your opponent’s entire back row with a single card. The problem is there’s no card to do the same with a cost, so banning a card like Heavy Storm will make duels versus defensive decks a lot harder (and basically-5 facedown+floater=unbeatable), but if there was something like “discard 1 card to destroy all s/t” it was a balanced card, side decked versus problem decks and not abused. The point is there isn’t. All we have is Giant Trunade, MST, Nobleman of Extermination and Cold wave. what’s common among these cards? they all were printed in LOB-PSV. they are the cards that created OTK during the current format, clearing backrows and breaking defenses easily.
I find some of the “power creep” cards pretty balanced. DAD is not a threat as one, in my opinion. Yea, he can come and blast everything and do damage, but if you take control of him, your opponent can get screwed big time. A non-winning DAD can easily become a losing DAD, and with less OTK-DAD is harder to abuse. Bottomless, Book, Torrential-and he’s down.
Gyzarus is pretty much the same. It should be limited, but it is not the problem alone: Prisma is the problem card in the combo. If Gyzarus is limited, and gets destroyed or removed from play during the game, GB are easier to defeat all of a sudden. Solemn Judgment limited help that, as well as Bestiari limited and the tendencies of Gladiator Beast decks to run only 1 Murmillo allows that destroying either of the 3 cards makes winning a lot easier, especially if removed from play in the process.
Judgment Dragon, however, is another case. There’s barely a limit to summoning it, it pays with life points (which are usually enough to pay 2 or 3 times easily, due to the VERY LOW cost…), it discards 4 cards AND he got 2600 defense-a huge amount of defense, making it immune to most Book of Moon plays (unlike Gyzarus, which can be destroyed by any Breaker the Magical Warrior, and DAD, which can be destroyed by any Goblin Zombie). Judgment Dragon can also be revived by using Beckoning Light, so even having one in the graveyard means unlimited access to a powerhouse.
I’m not here to defend 1 card or another, just saying that the power creep existed ever since the game was created, by having super cards right off the bat (while some types didn’t get any real support).
as long as the game doesn’t become “OTK LUCKSACKING” like it was in the past 6 months (and don’t tell me lightsworn are balanced due to bad hands, because that’s why they are the biggest lucksacking deck a TCG has ever seen: They can have bad hands and lose or good hands and win!), the game can get better and is getting funner (especially with the diversity with Synchro monsters, the existance of cards like Cyber Valley and Morphtronics).
Regarding bad and good players issue: Bad players get wins over good players due to power cards, and this should stop. I doubt it will happen, but any limitation on Lightsworn will definitly do that, cause other “User-Friendly” decks like Blackwings and Gladiators were really weakened by the Ban List, and Cat Synchro actually died. so Lightsworn is the only left Noob-friendly deck.
TMadness
August 20th, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Atem
…Um I think you meant to Say Summoned Skull was the Original beater not Dark Magician. But Point well made! I agree with you other than DM and SS
No.
You missed a detail in my post.
I mentioned DM as a card released in the OCG’s Volume 1, although I got the date wrong – Vol. 1 was released even earlier than March 1999. It was the Starter Box w/ BEWD that was released that March.
Emphasis on OCG.
This is NOT a release with any sort of actual TCG equivalent. Legend of Blue-Eyes White Dragon, the first set we received in the TCG, was nothing more than a fusion of the OCG’s first two reprint sets – those two named Legend of Blue-Eyes White Dragon and Phantom God. Our Metal Raiders was the OCG’s “Revival of Black Demon’s Dragon” and “Metal Raiders.”
These OCG reprint sets were reprints of the OCG’s first print series; they weren’t even the last reprint sets for that series. The series’ boosters began w/ Volume 1 on January 23, 1999 – and since it’s the first series, that’s also when the game itself began.
The highest ATK in that booster belonged to DM and DM alone. Summoned Skull was never the ATK king (and thereby never the floater king) of the early game, and was only used over the others thanks to mostly optimum returns on investment – returns that, as soon as a BEWD hit the field, ceased to exist until the BEWD left.
This is some OLD history here.
Just like everyone else here, I too have been playing Yugioh since LOB. The statement regarding the sudden “change” when Cyber Dragon hit the US is completely true. Around the time of it’s release, my local card shop got a few boxes of CRV and sold them very quickly. The reason why the set sold so fast was due to Cyber Dragon and the fact that it was the first “free” 2100 atk beater. As the atk curve grew higher and higher, the cards changed. Broken effects (or really, really good ones) replaced the older cards and the game simply faded away from the old tomato/control days to themed sets.
The best example of the themed sets are obviously PTDN and LOTD. Why on Earth would UDE/Konami create a set that solely supported the most over-powered attributes in the game? I really have no idea, If I had to guess, it would be because they felt the need to print more and more cards that shattered older concepts and metrics.
The game has been heading in the wrong direction for years, yet no one has felt the urge to make any changes. Some ideas have proven to be balanced, but the vast majority of cards that see Tier 1 play take advantage of the “floating” concept and have virtually costless, devastating effects.
good read.
While I think that that many of your assertions, Jae, are correct, I think that it’s a little bit too late for that. The time it would take to sort out the game… It would take a few sets, and a huge banlist, and even if Konami wanted to I don’t think they could for fear of losing most of their player base.
On the point of X-Sabers, by the way, the empty-your-hand-in-one-turn thing is extremely rare and relies on a very good hand.
The best way to explain this game to people who never played any of TCGs for me was saying “There are several thousands different cards and therefore there are billions of posible combos and strategies… Therefore it’s versatile, what makes it highly interesting and anyone can find himself enjoying in one of those strategies.”
Then I take one of my favorites (Counter fairies, DW, Samurais… or any of billion) and go to my local… and I just don’t enjoy it anymore but stay frustrated.
I think that game (cards) designers should spread support equally amongst attributes, (sub)types, archtypes and different whatever in order to give this game more ways to go. Plus, they can still make profit (if that is the main goal!!!???). This way of development, it only makes it more and more uniform.
I don’t want to ask myself a question if DAD or GB will win next SJC. I need some surprise. I need to clear dust from my Dark World deck and not to feel stupid for doing so or for I have spent xxx$ for that (for single use) pleasure.
Excelant discusion with perfect timing!
this is a great read, and i too wish that we go back to the old days.
It seems to me that it is almost impossible to do so considering the vast majority of cards that would need to be banned edited and reprinted (the edited versions). It is possible. So if Konami listens in the next five years we can expect change in Yu-Gi-Oh. Also Duel Monsters will thrive prosper remain the top played TCG (OCG) in the world and people will know why!!!
This breaking of metrics has helped yugioh get more fans and duelists only at the cost of a loss of few. Which in return will allow YuGiOh to remain indestructible (so to speak). Now if you are reading this be sure to sent this article posted by JAE and the discussion to konami and let them know
WE ARE DUELIST and we will not surrender!!!!
AMAZING ARTICLE JAE!
I recently had discussions with almost every point you brought up here.
The limitation of ATK power for a “regular” summon
The power of floaters
I hadnt really debated the “versatility” issue lately but it is important
Great read, I only wish Konami could understand the unwritten game “rules and limitations” as well as the rest of us
You left us with an interesting question.
What if the game still revolved around Normal and Flip summons, with strategies being linked to Subtypes/Attributes such as FIRE being burn, Beasts doing trample, Spellcasters manipulating spells and counters, Zombies coming back from life and other such ideas better fleshed out with sharper card design. Would it be more enjoyable or less?
My answer is no.
Or specifically, themes with their own abilities and drawbacks are OK, but they can’t be rigid. They have to be flexible and themes need to overlap
Magic the Gathering is the perfect example
Each color has its own abilities, strengths, and weaknesses
For a long time, people chose the color they played and had work in those limitations.
Over time, people got tired of it
Its too, Rock-Paper-Scissors
Its too redundant and predictable, you know that the green card in the new set will get more mana and the black card will kill something
So in the last couple years Magic has put a strong emphasis on Multi-Color themes
In fact, all of Ravnica and Shards of Alara were multicolor themes
This made people happy because they now had versatility, and games were less predictable.
I anticipate MTG to continue this since these sets have had much success, and YGO can learn from this observance.
i agree that themes need to be flexible. having rigid themes like Fire/Pyro, Water/Aqua, Water/Fish, Dark, Dark/Fiend, etc is just stupid. it limits the creativity of the players. i like decks that are able to evolve naturally out of the mechanics of the game, such as robbin’ goblin floater decks (i know jae is a fan!) or other strategies like that. i think that’s one of the best parts of yugioh, since there is no resource system you are free to throw in “mismatching” cards that work toward your theme.
just a caveat RE: Living Legend’s statement:
While playing “mismatching” cards working towards a theme is certainly a strength of YGO, it has simultaneously been its greatest drawback. Breaker provides us with one of the best examples of this. Great in the “Spellcaster – Spell Counter” decktype, but awesome everywhere else, too.
In fact, not just awesome, but BETTER everywhere else than it is w/in it’s own “theme” or “decktype.”
So while you don’t want themes/types to be too rigid, you neither want them to be overly flexible.
Konami needs to sell cards to make money. Its business is largely repeat customers, but it still wants to attract new customers.
Therefore as increasingly more powerful cards are released, Konami have to release ever more powerful cards after that, so that new customers can break into the game without feeling like they can’t compete with the current meta – whether that be the school yard of the local hobby shop.
Konami simply wouldn’t sell as many cards if, rather than being more powerful, new cards were simply of an alternate attribute or type with slightly different effects that complemented other cards of a type, as opposed to being splashable.
For those players with limited financial resources, they would be inclined to find a deck that worked for them, that won 50/50 in duels, and largely be happy with the investment – with the occasional experiment with new cards of their theme. Players with more financial resources might try new deck types once in a while, but when their main deck is still just as functional – their won’t be the same imperitive to ‘upgrade’ as there is today.
For a TCG of the size of Yu-Gi-Oh (the largest in the world), Konami either has to change its revenue model, and invest in setting up tournaments etc, or it has to keep ramping up the scale of the cards offered – bigger, better, faster, stronger, to maintain sales and attract interest from new blood. A TCG owned and produced for profit has little alternative if they want to remain viable.
As nice as it would be to go back to the ‘old days’ – Officially, it simply isn’t going to happen. I would imagine that very few players would be willing to create their own ‘format’ to play by which used a dynamic of normal summon/flip summon with 1900 ATT HIGH. It would mean cutting off use of cards from some of the early boosters forward – and not many players like playing in such a static and dead environment. Yet thats the only way that dynamic will ever happen – Konami simply doesn’t have an interest in losing momentum on sales.
Many people agreed that Konami made number of mistakes in designing cards and that resulted with some powerfull effects, now banned. I am afraid if they try to design themes/types overly flexible it will end in bigger mess.
If effects would be designed more to support one thing, creativity would have to take place. As it happened before – twilight was one. Players will always find the way, only material is needed.
Living Legend:
We used to have this discussion a lot a huge issue in Yugi is the lopped sided power of cards. Warriors have always been a favorite for some reason followed by spellcasters while other themes get the worst support. Look at Fiends with the second largest amount of monster cards fiends have aweful support in comparison with Spellcasters and warriors. As a matter of fact Dragons are some of this games fiercest monsters but to build a dragon themed deck that is truly competative is near impossible. However, you can amke a warrior themed deck and splash in a few other monster types and have a tier one deck.
I would argue that the cards that have been designed are only a secondary problem to the cards that they choose to ban or limit. Lets take for instance when IOC and chaos was just running rampant. They Ban Dragon and limit Soldier?! What kinda logic was that and then they allow it to exist for 2 ban lists before realizing that BLS even at 1 was still an awesome card early and late game. Cobined with some very interesting rulings as we have all come to agree on the designers of this game have no idea what they are doing or to what end they are creating this game. Yea I know it would be hard to get all 3 god cards on the field (uria, hamon and raviel) but damn 10,000ATK POINTS WTF WERE U SMOKING! this screams abuse me.
sorry I was refering to the new contact fusion for those 3 cards.
“Witch’s ATK score of 1100 was deemed too high for such a powerful effect, and it was then banned.”
I have to disagree. Witch was banned because of the wide variety of search targets, and the limitation on future card design. Low defense was supposed to be a drawback so cards like Book of Moon and Block Attack could take down larger threats, such as Summoned Skull and Jinzo. Witches turned that liability into a plus. The 1100 ATK was, most likely, an obvious recognition of CCV.
Nice article, I really enjoyed it, thanks!
tmadness you make a lot of fairly pointless posts i have no idea how that relates to anything we were discussing
Atem
August 20th, 2009 at 1:35 PM
#
Living Legend
August 20th, 2009 at 10:00 AM
… sooner or later, players will have to get over it, and learn to accept the new way of yugioh.
No. We can very well continue to say “X was better”, as that’s just our telling the truth.
Alternatively, how about a new restriction list that takes a page out of Magic and bans by set…but backwards!
Or we could kidnap Konami employees and slowly replace them with top pros.
Just kidding!
(But not really…)
I think I honestly like the game more now for what it’s becoming than for what it was before.
Nowadays, the game requires much more skill, and much more deck-building critique, than what it did back in the days of LOB. With each new set comes a greater array of strategy to unlock, and now moreso than ever before you need a much stronger knowledge of the metagame you’re playing in and how to properly tech for it in preparation.
Also, tracing your article back to the Cybernetic Revolution reference, maybe an argument can be made for Konami’s actions.
You see, what would’ve happened if Konami had stuck to their previous principles? Perhaps, the game could have gotten steral in the eyes of most of its players. The game could’ve even gone under! Although that is definitely by far an exaggeration, the changes Konami made it is unarguable helped them greatly profit from the game.
But what is the reason for that? Perhaps it is because the general player base is attracted to the new trends the game is going in, tactically beneficial or not as far as the actual game is concerned. People are naturally attracted to flashy, romantic-esque trends in gameplay, whether or not it sacrifices strategy for mindless appearance, and Konami may be well aware of this. In fact, looking at this from a broader perspective, this could even explain why as far as society is concerned, this is why physically athletic sports are more widely appreciated than Trading Card Games.
Of course Yu-Gi-Oh, is by far not the latter of the two, but the question at hand is whether, in the end, this is even a factor. In fact Jae, to quote you yourself, “This game is what it is,” and as a player I personally try and look at whatever game I play with that very same perspective.
And finally in the end comes this question: “is what is good for Konami actually good for us too,” and it, as far as in cyclical free-market terms, would appear so. After all, it is undeniable that Konami is indeed profiting from the game’s state moreso than they ever were before, and I think it could be said in all fairness that this is a logical conclusion. After all, since Cybernetic Revolution three truths have become prevalent:
1)Konami and their profits have substancially increased at a faster rate than ever before
2)More new players have graced this game and at a faster rate than ever before; and
3)It continues with the coming of each new tournament that the incentive to invest in going pro in this game has only gotten more appealing.
And it would appear that each of the three parts of this cycle only grow and benefit from each other. So, considering that through the use of the ban list properly for preventing this game from indeed becoming too explosive, Konami has taken the proper precautions to ensure a continued stable play environment. So the way that I see things here, if I were a personal advisor to Konami, I would say, “why mess with a good thing,” as I can say with complete confidence that I believe this game is going nowhere, especially if the only problem (if you could even call it that) is that Konami is making too much money because they are releasing too many good cards. Which, even in the Traditional Format play environment, I have yet to see prevalent.
Yea, sorry about that think I hit a wild tangent button or something. Back to the state of the game!
Derrick: I don’t think 1, 2 and 3 are true at all.
1) Konami’s game division sales including video games/arcades/card games (YGO) just dropped 45%. Though this is in a recession so I’m not sure about figures before this in a normal economy. These figures include video game/arcade sales drops and aren’t completely YGO based (or YGO based at all, just all the info we have).
For the last quarter their profit dropped like 97%, and for the year ending 2008 their profit dropped something like 45%. These are huge chunks.
2) SJC numbers have been stagnant/similar for years
3) Nobody is “going pro.” There is no incentive to doing so whatsoever unless you truly love the game.
I think it’s clear Konami in the US has been a positive influence on the game with many pluses and minuses. My next piece on Pojo will assess that.
Actually, I’ve been surprised by Konami’s resilience in the recession. Given that they’re providing a hobby that would be the first thing most people cut back on, I was half-expecting them to have gone under by now.
@Ice-eyes
I agree that the X-Saber loop is very fragile and luck based, the X-Saber deck should not be built around it by any means though it is a possibility.
I’ve played the video games for a while, but I just got into the tournament scene, so this post has really given me some insight on the history of the game.
It appears to me that while the power level of monsters has gone up exponentially, the power level of spells and traps has been ratcheted down.
Take a look at some of the original staple spells and traps. How many of them have been banned or limited? And even then, how many of those have had weaker versions printed?
For example, how many knockoffs of Change of Heart have been printed? And of THOSE, how many have been banned/limited?
Have there ever been metrics that were used in designing spells and traps? Or did Konami just print cards that were in the manga/anime and then say, “Whoops! We really shouldn’t have printed Sixth Sense! Banned!”?
Well, all I was trying to get at was that:
1)Card prices have gone up and more booster packs have been sold at a faster rate since the pre-Tele-DAD format, or at least that’s what was prevalent close to the area I live in. So the game has only gotten substantially better in my home state.
2)SJC Anaheim was the second biggest SJC in North American Hisatory, and after such a long break from the Organized Play scene, too. And Nationals set a similar trend, as well. All I’m saying here is that, with each new large-scale tournament, the statistics show a good thing as we only seem to break some kind of a record each time, albeit attendance, spectacular prizes, or a new champ winning his third or fourth jump.
3)Maybe I chose my words incorrectly, because I personally am deeply passionate about this game. But did you see the prizes given to the top-4 at Nationals, Ferber must’ve walked away a rich man? All I’m saying is that I think Konami is amazingly outdoing themselves with the advent of each new large-scale tournament. Or at least that’s what it would seem like to me.
But again my apologies, as I was up really late last night when posting about your article. But I respect you enough to think we could disagree on this, no matter where the statistics point. Anyways, I’m just curious as to what you think about the rest of my post. Did you think it was spot-on, or maybe a little flawed, perhaps?
It’s irritating to see folks keep mentioning “things aren’t going to back to the way they were” as if we should care so much about that as to stop complaint.
There’s a difference between “going back to the way things were” and getting rid of cards that make the game too fast…
Yeah, that’s a very good way to put it.
Going back to the way things were would require an utter elimination of everything since then.
We don’t want that, we simply want an expansion OF everything since then, rather than an utter destruction of everything since then.
Couldn’t agree more. I am glad I’m not the only one thinking there are loony buffoons in their R&D…
Amazing read.
Just a thought- about all these new OTK strategies; what if there was a format specifically geared towards older cards? Everything BEFORE Gemini Elf and Mechanicalchaser. Certainly would feel nostalgic…
I think the synchro mechanic has changed the game the most recently. I wouldn’t mind seeing it go away.
Also continually adding new cards and effects is making the game more complicated. It has to be hard for young kids to start up nowadays as the number of cards and effects is so high. I’m wondering if eventually the existing players will “outgrow” the game, in other words become older and lose interest. Without a lot of new players coming into the game to replace them the interest (profits) could eventually decline so much that it would kill the game.
It seems at my local that the crowd is getting older.
If you choose to review the entire development of the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG as a strategic game, you would see a lot of other drastic changes, you did not mention.
The most obvious of these changes are the amount of drawing outside the Draw Phase. In the beginning, we were allowed to use both Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity, two powerful Spells that are Forbidden for a reason. Pot of Greed is an instant advantage for no cost, whereas Graceful Charity allows to both view more more cards than any other, and then discard some, a fact which allowed Graceful Charity to synergize with Zombies (which I believe you ran yourself, Jae), Chaos, Treeborn Frog-based Monarch, Dark World, and that is just the Advanced Format!
However, six months after it Graceful Charity was Forbidden, Destiny Draw appeared. A solid, powerful and somehow balanced version of Pot of Greed which allowed Destiny Heroes to become an integral part of the Metagame. This meant that Decks, who wished to draw more and more had to use Destiny Heroes. At the time, Card Trooper and Dekoichi stablized the Metagame, along with Trap Dustshoot.
But then, with the assistance of Disk Commander, the Destiny Hero engine soon became the obvious pick for control-oriented Decks, as the engine had a powerful target for both Premature Burial and Call of the Haunted, an instant floater with 1800 ATK, a Spell tutor and three Spells that allowed to cycle through the Deck. Not to mention, a free Special Summon to be used as a Tribute for the Monarchs you gather in your hand. This engine was rivaled only by the trio of Card of Safe Returns that Zombie Master, Book of Life and Il Blud allowed. Anyhow, these themed draw power cards meant that these Decks are to rule the Metagame.
And it happened again with the release of Allure of Darkness.
In the previous Advanced Format, all of the popular Decks had one feature in common: a powerful draw engine. It also seems that these so-called draw engines have been replaced by the more-specific search engines, powerful ones, that are not as vulnerable as the recruiters of Spell Ruler, but rather powerful Gladiator Beast (which also had Rescue Cat and Test Tiger), Blackwing (which had Black Whirlwind and Shura), Rescue Cat (Summoner Monk, Rescue Cat): since the power balance in the game clearly shifted in the recent year towards Monsters, Summoner monk, Rescue Cat, Black Whirlwind and the Gladiator Beast theme as a whole became that dangerous and that powerful.
And until a new reliable engine to search and/or draw will be released, no new Decks will join the circle of the top picks. Zombies, Blackwing with Vafu and Lightsworn have unique, reversed engines are Graveyard-based. Especially notable are Lightsworns, which have a Spell tutor, a Spell draw card and the ability to draw from their Graveyard, via Beckoning Light.